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| Extreme Lore | |
 Lord of the Rings Dreams : Middle Earth Discussions : Extreme Lore |
Topic: Am I Wrong?( Topic Closed) |
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Sivan Ilius
Mordor 
Aka Ardwyr Joined: 26 Sep 2007 Location: United States Online Status: 
Points: 1235 |
 Topic: Am I Wrong?Posted: 18 Jul 2008 at 21:56 |
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As a hobby, I study ancient and medieval arms and armour, culture, and literature. Over time I've been able to spot a few "coincidental" things and have drawn a conclusion...
Here's some of the stuff I've gathered:
 http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk307/triny_yo/runer.gif
My conclusion:
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Synonyms for NONSENSE:
poppycock, claptrap, trash, TV, iPODS, cellphones with Internet, processed cheese, loud people, quiet people, people in general, basically anyone who isn't Sivan Ilius |
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Galen
Imladris Ruler 
Lord Elrond Joined: 04 Apr 2007 Location: United States Online Status:
Points: 3361 |
Posted: 19 Jul 2008 at 15:11 |
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I seem to recall reading something that said that he wrote these stories intentionally as though it was the real ancient history of these areas, so these similarities are not a surprise to me. I know he's mentioned Norse history as an inspiration. I did some research into this long ago, but alas, my recent hard drive crash claimed those notes forever. I'm sure others here can wax poetically about these issues but great research!
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Galen Aranor Husband of his beloved Idril Twin to Silen |
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Ciryandil
Newbie 
Joined: 07 Aug 2008 Online Status:
Points: 81 |
Posted: 07 Aug 2008 at 18:46 |
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Prof. Tolkien was the professor of Anglo-Saxon at Oxford and was deeply familiar with the works of Anglo-Saxon. Generally speaking, his forte, however, was Middle-English (Chaucer etc.) and thus there can be seen many links between Anglo-Saxon and Middle-English in his works. The hall of Meduseld is actually based on the Mead Hall in Beowulf which he brought into literary world with his famous essay "Beowulf and the Critics" Some of his characters draw from the tale of Sir Gawain and the Green knight (of which he wrote a famous translation).
Tolkien's characters are intentionally resemblant of the people of our history because he did set out to write a history or rather a pre-history to our world. England doesn't have any particular mythology of ourselves. Even the Arthurian tales are profoundly French in origin (Yuck!) and so he wrote England's own mythology which is why the hobbits are so surprisingly English! |
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The Might
Men 
Joined: 30 May 2007 Location: Germany Online Status:
Points: 281 |
Posted: 01 Nov 2008 at 13:34 |
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Indeed, Tolkien does relate many of Middle Earth's people to certain civilizations in Middle Age Europe.
He goes so far so as to actually mirror the development of a people as in the case of the Rohirrim. As Rohirrim should be Saxons, the ancestors of the Eotheod are described as if of Germanic origin mirroring how Saxons actually had a Germanic descent. And so names like Vidumavi or Vidugava (ot sure if this is the exact way they're written) have a meaning in Gothic I believe. |
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Janowyn
Imladris Co Ruler 
Glorfindel Joined: 07 Jun 2007 Location: United Kingdom Online Status:
Points: 9066 |
 Posted: 26 Apr 2009 at 18:34 |
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It's true that Tolkien deliberately intended for Arda/Middle Earth to encompass some of the many sources of mythologies that the peoples of northwestern parts of Europe and the British Isles 'believed' in before christianity established itself - very early in the 7th Cent AD. The sagas and myths that Tolkien moulded and re-invented covers the eras both before as well as after the Roman Empire expanded and receded. The 'local' pagan beliefs had never gone away during that occupation as the Romans never outlawed religious cultural cults - they simply 'adapted' the indigenous pantheon to fit in with their own (most famously running parallel with the Greek one).
A few quick examples - Roman Jove/Zeus would equate in Scandinavia with Odin and in Celtic/Gaelic areas of Britain the Dagda (who also had a hammer like Thor);
the spa town of Aquae Sulis (Bath) was named after the Celtic water goddess Sulis and the Romans promptly plonked her into their culture as Sulis Minerva (Greek equivalant Athene) who was associated with healers and indeed there was a community of Druid healers at the thermal spring. Any Norse/German equivalent wasn't applied, but if it had been it would likely have been the goddess Eir.
It's true that the Romans were far less tolerant of the Druids and basically exterminated them in mainland England and Wales, but that was political rather than religious persecution. When the Romans left, the Druids began to slink back from their strongholds in Ireland, Anglesey and the Isle of Man although they never re-established their ascendancy as it was pre-Roman invasion.
In Norse myth we find more direct links to Arda and starting right there we have MidgARD which literally means Middle Earth (and a earlier source of Midgeard) as in the Midgard Serpent - which was also associated with the world-tree Yggdrasil which in turn was associated with the Aesir and the Vanir (some of whom had associations with Elves and one, Freyr lived in Alfheimr or Elfworld) - who collectively made up the Norse pantheon.
I think the Celtic element in ME is mainly associated with language and principally with Sindarin (the language of Doriath and of Thranduil and Legolas) which has a lot of Welsh (Celtic P) sources. Anglo-Saxon cultural elements as observed above seem to apply mainly to Men and Viking Norse especially to those of Numenor (the Danish/Norwegian norsemen who were given Normandy to settle in order to get them away from (and demolishing) Paris as they in turn passed into Britain as the Normans in the 2nd millennium. One Celtic culture that does belong to ME Men however is the cult of the horse goddess Epona/Rhiannon which of course beautifully fits the Rohirrim.
The thing to remember with Celts, Saxons (Angles are essentially the same as Saxons but nobler) and Vikings is that they are all descended from Bronze Age Indo-Europeans who originated (it's thought) in modern-day Switzerland and migrated west and east. They were amongst the first people to use iron in Europe and at one point almost overwhelmed the Etruscans and the Greeks with superior weaponry and their use in battle of horses and chariots. They had various 'dropping-off' points and as other tribes came along they mingled. The 'celtiest' Celts or Gaels are today genetically predominant in extreme south-western England (Cornwall), Wales, Ireland and then later from there to Scotland - also Brittany, France and north-western parts of Spain and Portugal (the Basques) all of which were obviously the limits of the western migratory trail for the original Swiss groups.
All these cultures (not nations) are mixed into the various pagan invaders of Britain who were assimilated as either odious incoming barbarians or the 'old ones' represented by Merlin, the Lady of the Lake and the Fisher King (Druids/Celt) into Arthurian and Atlantean legend. Both Beleriand and Numenor were drowned and so obvious Atlantean links there. As for the rest - well too many links to mention but they ARE English as well as French and Scandinavian (the Nor(se)man kings were basically Vikings who lived in France and married noble and not so noble french girls). All these Indo-Europeans and Germanic tribes were all migratory throughout western Europe and then invasive as they need more territories, slaves, food etc. The British Isles are loosely speaking less mingled genetically since the earliest historic times than in the rest of Europe, simply because we were so far away from continental Europe and of course had sea borders which stopped too many concentrated incursions. These incomers tended to become absorbed into the first tribal migrants who were most definitely Celts, (and they in turn had mingled with a Neolithic culture who were in Britain before we became separated from the European landmass which, many believe, was the basis of the Atlantis/Lyonesse myth). So the UK was most definitely a mongrel nation but then so was the rest of Europe. The only belief/mythic culture that wasn't in place in England - and in Scandinavian too - was christianity until the latter half and the very end respectively of the 1st millennium. When that arrived they also adopted the Roman tactic of co-opting local myth and celebrations that could loosely 'fit' the Gospel (popular example Eostre a spring deity - Easter?), but did a far better job of dissing the old myths and spirituality where it didn't. But that 's a whole other story...
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Janowyn of Ithilien Betrothed of her beloved Silen Bard of Imladris |
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